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US Gov't attacking piracy...again.

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So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 03:03:00 - [1] Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? "To illegally, or without the owner's permission, take possession of something by surreptitiously taking or carrying it away." Nope, sorry, try again.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 04:11:00 - [2] Originally by: illford baker Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: illford baker a cold chapter for who? the lawless individuals who steal everything they want because of their sense of entitlement. i for one welcome law to the internet, can there be a golden age in a lawless world? "To illegally, or without the owner's permission, take possession of something by surreptitiously taking or carrying it away." Nope, sorry, try again. what do you mean? that is what you are doing. by pirating something, you are taking it away form the owner without paying him/her anything. Nope, I am making a copy (From another third party no less), I take nothing.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:10:00 - [3] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Yeah yeah we've all heard these tiring and worn out excuses before. Its a copy therefore its not stealing. Its digital and not real therefore its ok. Blah blah blah. And everyone has their own reasons like being poor, or wanting to view it before purchasing an actual copy or whatever. But in the end you still gained something while the person(s) who created it gained nothing. I'm no saint here, I've done it myself a number of times now. The only difference is I know what I'm doing is wrong. I gained something sure, he gained nothing? That can be debated. What can also be debated (Even if you come to the conclusion that he or she gained nothing) is if that is actually wrong, "not ok". I certainly don't believe so.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: So Sensational I gained something sure, he gained nothing? That can be debated. What can also be debated (Even if you come to the conclusion that he or she gained nothing) is if that is actually wrong, "not ok". I certainly don't believe so. I know you don't believe so. Like I said, it helps you sleep at night. Sure, but then again with that logic pretty much everything does. I don't do a lot of things that I consider morally wrong. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Now since you brought it up, I would love it if you were to start this debate on what they gain when you make a copy of something like a cd or a movie without paying for it. I'll let you be pro-pirate here. It probably won't be worth the effort to go very far into the subject, considering the CCP policy on politics. But a simple example could be the pride that an artist feels when people enjoy their work.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 05:47:00 - [5] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 05:58:48 Originally by: illford baker Originally by: So Sensational Nope, I am making a copy (From another third party no less), I take nothing. you are making a copy, and you are taking a sale from him. money that SHOULD go to him. you are taking something, don't try to rationalize it into something else. I take no sale because I wouldn't and couldn't purchase the product. I already spend all the entertainment dollars (Kronor in this case) that I'm capable of spending. You could argue that if there was no piracy, and I at some point in the future had access to more money, I might purchase one of the items I download. That is possible but in my opinion that's far from enough to outweigh the positive aspects of piracy. The "taking a sale" part is a bit of a gray zone because with torrents you're sharing the files, I might be taking a sale (Or several) or I might not be depending on who I'm sharing with. That is a separate debate altogether though. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Do they still enjoy the idea that somebody is viewing or using their goods even though they receive nothing in kind for their work? Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: So Sensational Some probably do. Edit: Assuming that idea contains the example I gave you, the pride in their work. I will note the some probably do showing everyone that you are in fact not positive of this statement. Do you have any references? Can I prove that some artists who want to get paid also take pride in the quality (Based on the enjoyment that people get out of it) of their work? No I don't keep a list at hand, sorry.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 06:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: So Sensational Can I prove that some artists who want to get paid also take pride in the quality (Based on the enjoyment that people get out of it) of their work? No I don't keep a list at hand, sorry. Just as a note, when you are in a debate it is advisable to come prepared with references as proof as it really helps your case. Just as a note I can name 2 major brand names off the top of my head but as I'm playing for the sake of the debate I will not list them...yet. Brand names relevant how exactly? I still don't understand what sort of reference you were expecting. Do you really want me to find an artist who takes pride in the quality of their work or are you just ignoring my points and rambling like a robot?
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:13:00 - [8] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means. Well I'd like to state that I never made that statement. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate. I don't have to prove that you breathe, much like I shouldn't have to prove that some (Or even most) artists take pride in their work. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one. State what? And since when is a label a reference that proves my claim? Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So far you have a very poor case here. So far you don't seem to understand a thing I've written. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto. No I'm good, but if you want I might be able to help you with your reading comprehension.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:22:00 - [9] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:25:45 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Brand names. Major Labels. Members of the music industry. People who normally expect you to pay but as you state they don't mind if you attain the music by 'other' means. Well I'd like to state that I never made that statement. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich And yes I expect you to back up your claims, that is the very point of a debate. I don't have to prove that you breathe, much like I shouldn't have to prove that some (Or even most) artists take pride in their work. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Like I said I can name 2 labels that state this and here you are not being able to tell me of even one. State what? And since when is a label a reference that proves my claim? Originally by: Micheal Dietrich So far you have a very poor case here. So far you don't seem to understand a thing I've written. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I may have to give you some pointers on how to debate so you can say domo arigato Mr Roboto. No I'm good, but if you want I might be able to help you with your reading comprehension. This is an attempt to sidetrack. Con will point out that the opponent still hasn't backed up their case. There is no attempt to sidetrack. My case is that some humans take pride in their work. Pro will point out that this is common knowledge, if that is not an acceptable reference for this serious debate on this very serious internet spaceship off-topic forum then that's too bad. Yes I know that this is an appeal to the people, sue me.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:36:00 - [10] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:37:29 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich That is not an acceptable reference. Again, too bad. I'm not going to google to find a source that proves my claim (Especially not since you seem to just be trolling) and if you feel that you've "won the debate" and you're satisfied with that then that works for me. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I've also have noted that you have taken potshots at me which is another no no in debate Right back at you. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich and now you are falling back on the internet spaceships forums tag line. Just pointing out how silly your requests are. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I am attempting to have a discussion. Clearly not, if you wanted to you wouldn't pretend like you're a part of a high school debate team, you'd actually read what I write. What's cute is that your reference to labels is not at all relevant to my claim, nor do you seem to understand what my claim is.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 07:52:00 - [11] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 07:52:21 Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Here I am with 2 links up that would back up your claims. They took me all of a half a minute to look up... Congratulations. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich in all this time you still cannot defend your own case. I don't feel the need to (Beyond what I've already done that is), you can play debate king all you want, in the end you haven't actually said anything that's relevant to the topic. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Would you like to switch sides or are you content with your sidetracking of the debate? That would be your doing, not mine.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:12:00 - [12] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich I'll anxiously await your 'gotta have last post' rebuttal. Here it is. You're either trolling, ignoring me or you're an idiot. Neither one of your links proves my claim and you still don't seem to understand what my claim is. At this point (Which we've been at since your second reply in this thread), what could possibly be left for me to do other than attack you?
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:21:00 - [13] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich You have a little hurt showing there. Turning a thread from serious issue to "u mad?", pretty good job bro. Now get out.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 08:31:00 - [14] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 08:34:09 Originally by: Wild Rho If no one understands what your claim is it's because you've utterly failed to clearly present what it actually is. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Now since you brought it up, I would love it if you were to start this debate on what they gain when you make a copy of something like a cd or a movie without paying for it. I'll let you be pro-pirate here. Originally by: So Sensational It probably won't be worth the effort to go very far into the subject, considering the CCP policy on politics. But a simple example could be the pride that an artist feels when people enjoy their work. If underlining the text is not enough then I don't know what is. Originally by: Wild Rho When you take goods or services that were not free without paying for them then its theft, no matter what your opinion on the provider is. It sure is. But when you make a copy it's making a copy. Originally by: Micheal Dietrich Give me 500 mil and I'll stop posting in this thread bro. But seriously, you are really starting to let that hurt show, you should probably move on instead of continually derailing the thread. no u
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Wild Rho That point was poorly made How so? He asked me to point out a gain, I gave him a simple example. There's nothing poor about it. Originally by: Wild Rho and you never actually backed it up with some sort of evidence (that clearly existed) As I've said, multiple times, if common knowledge isn't good enough then that's too bad. I don't know what evidence you're referring to, non has been provided. Originally by: Wild Rho but instead chose to turn the debate towards an argument about how you didn't need to provide it No, that would be him. Originally by: Wild Rho You've still also failed to address those that are not simply happy to take pride in their work and do expect to get paid for that they produce. Very true, it's a shame I've spent an entire page talking about how awesome Michael is at debates. Originally by: Wild Rho Taking a copy is still taking, you are using the products or services provided by someone without paying them for their work when it was not provided for free use, therefore it's still stealing. Unless you disagree with IP rights, at which point it is no longer stealing.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 09:50:00 - [16] Originally by: Wild Rho I'm afraid "common knowledge" without evidence isn't good enough in a debate if you want your point to have any weight. Hence why I chose a simple example, something which most people wouldn't need evidence to grasp. I suppose that was expecting too much. Originally by: Wild Rho If you're refusing to provide some hard evidence then you've made the point poorly and are not doing a terribly good job making a convincing arguement. This point should not have needed hard evidence. Originally by: Wild Rho IP rights are law so whether you agree with them or not does not justify breaking them or make it any less illegal. I never said it was legal. When it comes to justification however, that is usually based on morals, on what you consider right and wrong. So yes, disagreeing with them does justify breaking them.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 10:31:00 - [17] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 10:33:48 Originally by: Wild Rho The example doesn't do anything to prove your point, actual evidence would. Throw insults around if you want but it still leaves you with a weak point. My point is that when it comes to piracy, there is a gain involved for the creators, hence the example. The only evidence I could provide is that the example is true and I honestly can't be arsed to look for evidence that human beings take pride in doing something well. Originally by: Wild Rho Yes it does. Any time you make a general statement or apply "common knowledge" you need some facts to back it up. In a serious debate at Harvard, yes. I approach these forums more like say, talking to a friend or a co-worker about a subject that we're both interested in. I don't walk over to my closet, put on a tie and pull out my facts book every time I hit the bookmark. Originally by: Wild Rho If you disagree with a law you can protest it and/or appeal to get it changed but it doesn't create a justification to ignore it any more than you can chose to ignore other laws. Any more? No. Just as much? For sure. For that same reason I sometimes, while riding a bicycle, cross the street when there's a red light.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 11:23:00 - [18] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 11:25:39 Originally by: Wild Rho The gain you state doesn't pay the bills, put food on the table or help someone grow their business/career. The evidence you were asked to provide wasn't that people take pride in their works, it was that there are some who don't mind their work being pirated even though it's not provided for free. Nor did I claim it paid for anything. I have no idea why someone would ask me to provide that sort of evidence, and I cannot understand why that wouldn't be specified when suddenly brought up in a discussion about something quite different. Could it be because, as I've been saying, he failed miserably at reading my posts? Originally by: Wild Rho That's fair enough, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Cool. Originally by: Wild Rho The difference being that riding your bike across the street in a red light doesn't have an impact on anyone (unless you cause an accident). Taking what someone else provides (copying or otherwise) without paying for it is taking away their financial gain for the time and effort they put into their work, this does impact someone. Ah, and this would be the part which we already covered earlier. I don't take away anyone's financial gain when I download because I purchase as much as I can and download on top of that. This is the core argument of the music (Well, media I suppose) industry, the delusional idea that every download equals a lost transaction. See now if this was a serious debate, and I being the Pro representative, I'd now be bringing up the potential gains of being able to get your products out to potential costumers through piracy, customers who never would've known of said products otherwise. But then you'd go "OMGEVIDANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!" and we'd be on page 5 before we actually talk about the subject again.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 12:51:00 - [19] Originally by: Wild Rho I never asked you to show me evidence that pride or whatever paid the bills. I asked you to provide evidence that people who produce for profit are happy with being pirated. And why would you (You = Michael?) do this? Have I claimed that this is the case? Originally by: Wild Rho You'll need to be more clear about the bolded part. What is it you download on top of your purchases (things you can't afford / things not available etc)? Both do apply I suppose, anything I can't get a hold of in a legal way. Like anyone else my funds are limited, I can only afford to spend so much and anything that doesn't make the cut gets downloaded. In theory, in reality I've never done anything illegal, especially not piracy, which is a horrible crime Originally by: Wild Rho Well yeah, it's all well and good to say that all this stuff "could" happen or has the "potential" to happen but you need to actually show that its a real possibility or I could just counter argue that others "could" just pirate it the same way you have with a net gain of nothing for the producers. Then all that happens is we go back and forth all day making up hypothetical situations to support our arguments and ignore what's actually going on on the real world. Sure, but lets say I make a reasonable argument. For example, having your song downloaded 1 million times exposes you to an audience. Parts of this audience might not have heard your song otherwise, parts of this audience might tell their friends about your song. To me this makes sense and is a very likely scenario. So you'll basically shout EVIDANCE and then ignore it completely? Or would you agree with me if I say that there's some free advertisement involved in piracy, and as such the creator does gain something from piracy? Notice that there can be gain and loss at the same time, I'm not saying that "piracy adds +5 dollars to our revenue stream" but that there's a positive aspect too. This is as opposed to Michael's statement that when I download "the creator gains nothing and I gain something", the whole purpose of the past 2 pages or so I thought.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.28 19:48:00 - [20] Edited by: So Sensational on 28/11/2010 19:54:35 Originally by: Wild Rho And yes, you said some people "probably" are ok with being pirated hence being asked to show some evidence for that (quote from your post on the second page): A misunderstanding then, you see at first we were talking about the pride that you feel when doing quality work, he then brings up said idea (The one you quoted). I then assume that this idea includes the concept that we were actually discussing, the pride part. Hence the edit, to clarify that he was still talking about that and not throwing out a completely random question not relevant to anything I had said. Originally by: Wild Rho I can understand someone downloading something they'll never be able to purchase due to there being no other way to obtain it but not being able to afford it is no excuse. And they're not interchangeable? Not being able to pay for something means there's no other legal way to obtain it. Originally by: Wild Rho No the law is pretty clear in this. Piracy is illegal no matter what the reason you chose to give or whether you agree with it. That said out of the many crimes in the world it's hardly the worst. Yeah I was just making sure, in a semi-serious manner, that the CIA doesn't bash down my door. Originally by: Wild Rho Of course I'm going to shout evidence, the situation described is nice but has that actually happened to anyone? And yes, piracy can give free advertising, I won't deny it but if it doesn't translate into an income the producers can use to keep going it doesn't matter. Very well, that's the difference between me and you then. I guess I can simply accept an argument that makes sense to me, not as an absolute truth but enough to concede that (Had I been the one making the argument) "when you download the creators gain nothing, you gain something" isn't necessarily true. Originally by: Kalle Demos Why do you women do this? I mean what good would it do and how does it benefit you from arguing on the internet (or RL for that matter), the effort put into convincing (and failing because everyone is so *****ed) another person that 'you are right*' should be used on something else. Because it's fun?
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.29 11:14:00 - [21] Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I made a perfect replica at no expense to the artist. I don't feel bad about it because it was only imaginary property, a concept, it's not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws aren't always perfect and up to date, it is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for everything I perfectly replicate anyway but me taking it inspired me to possibly buy some paintings from an artist I would've never had the pleasure of knowing and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it. Fixed.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.30 01:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Zagdul The entertainment industry are becoming more thieves than the people who pirate. An example is ICE as they just stole a domain name from a person who runs a forum and a search engine. His claim is that he is not hosting or providing the "stolen" or "pirated" material. Yet, the masses are screaming with their torches and pitchforks to burn this guy at the stake. Where was the warrant? When was the owner of the site's constitutional rights exercised? Funny you should mention that: http://rulingclass.wordpress.com/2010/11/28/the-background-dope-on-dhs-recent-seizure-of-domains/
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.30 15:58:00 - [23] Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: So Sensational Unless you disagree with IP rights, at which point it is no longer stealing. I just wanted to say, this is the stupidest thing I've seen yet. It's like saying I don't agree that red light means stop, so it's not illegal if I just keep on driving. The law is the law until the law is changed, okay? Alright, back to your bickering Ah but I never said it wasn't illegal or breaking a law. I said it wasn't stealing, when you make a copy you do not take away the concept (The IP) from the creator.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.11.30 16:05:00 - [24] Originally by: Lady Skank Originally by: So Sensational Originally by: Lady Skank I was walking around my town center last week and there was an artist with a small store and some stands with some hand painted water colours on display, I liked one of the pictures but he was asking to much for it and I didn't have the money to pay so when he was busy with a customer I made a perfect replica at no expense to the artist. I don't feel bad about it because it was only imaginary property, a concept, it's not really immoral and the law doesn't matter because laws aren't always perfect and up to date, it is just relative and its not like I would have ever actually paid for everything I perfectly replicate anyway but me taking it inspired me to possibly buy some paintings from an artist I would've never had the pleasure of knowing and now I have this artists beautiful painting on my wall where other people can see it and appreciate it. Feeling pretty good about what I had accomplished I decided I could do more so I made my own stall opposite the artists stall and made a pretty sign and called it the "painting bay" and then copied every single one of his paintings dozens of times over and then gave one away freely to anyone that wanted one, the artists stall is no longer there anymore though because people didn't buy enough of his paintings to earn him a living from his work so he had to get a job at Tescos. He then decided to make a new painting and since the growth of the media industry is larger than ever he made a billion dollars during the opening weekend. Fixed. Fixed again. And once more.
So Sensational GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2010.12.01 00:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Vmir Gallahasen Originally by: Eve-Online EULA REQUIREMENTS TO PLAY To play EVE, you must: (i) purchase a license to the Software (this may be available with the purchase of a boxed version of the Game and/or from the EVE web site http://www.eveonline.com); [...]and (iv) comply with the EULA. This is a contract. The moment you've breached the contract (by not purchasing a license and therefore not complying with the EULA) you're on the wrong side of the law. What you've stolen from the IP holder(s) is the money s/he/they would have made if you had respected the law. And as I've said somewhere in this thread, you cannot, under any condition, steal something from someone they did not have; you cannot steal "Potential" anything. This. There's no theft involved in Piracy.

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